Last Author Standing alternative voting systems.

[silver_sun]

I'v been thinking about Last Author Standing voting systems, and what the alternatives might be for the usual 'one postive, one and or more negative' voting systems.



1. People vote and leave feedback for the story they'd like to win.

Advantage: It's simple, nobody gets a negative vote.

Disadvantages: If multiple people get no votes at all who gets voted out? The solutions would be either keep voting open until there's only one story with no votes (which means not being able to have a fix posting schedule for the challenges) or that all stories with no votes are voted out - which could if everybody liked the same story in the first round that everybody would be voted out in one go.


2. People vote and leave feedback for three stories they like and rank them first, second and third. Points, 3 for first, 2 for second, and 1 for third are awarded. The story with most points wins.

Advantages: It's simple, nobody gets any negative votes.

Disadvantages: Still has the possibility for multiple people to have no votes at all, although this is less of a problem if only a few writers taking part. Having to leave three lots of feedback might put some voters off - although as it's three positive votes they might not mind so much.

3. People vote and leave feedback for all the stories and rank them first, second and third etc until all stories in that round have been ranked. Points are awarded based on how many stories there are (so points from 10 to 1 for ten stories, points from 15 to 1 for fifteen stories.) The story with the most points wins

Advantages: Everybody gets feedback every round. Less likely to produce a tie.

Disadvantages: Having to rank all the stories and leave so much feedback might put people off from voting.


4. People vote for all the stories and rank them first, second and third etc until all stories in that round have been ranked. Points are awarded based on how many stories there are (so points from 10 to 1 for ten stories, points from 15 to 1 for fifteen stories.) But only leave feedback for the one they ranked first. The story with the most points wins.

Advantages: Simple. Voters unlikely to be put odd by only having to leave 1 piece of positive feedback.

Disadvantages: Higher chance of writers not getting any feedback.


5. An LJ poll, you vote for the story you like best.

Advantages: More people likely to vote. Simple to use.

Disadvantages: Nobody gets any feedback at all. Has the same problem as the single postive feedback vote system - you could easily end up with multiple stories with no votes, posing the same question of how do you decide who gets voted off.


Suggestions welcome for other voting systems welcome.

Questions:

Would you be more likely to take part in a Last Author Standing if you knew you'd never get negative feedback? (You may still of course get no feedback depending on the voting system used.)

Is negative feedback a useful part of Last Author Standing challenges? and if this is the case would it be helpful for the rules of the LAS to say that the negative vote needs to be constructive critisism rather than 'I just didn't like this one as much as the rest'?

If you had to give feedback on all the stories in a round, say 12 stories, would this put you off voting? or would you be pleased to have the opportunity to tell all the writers what you think about their entry?

Any other questions that are important and that I've not thought of?

I'm trying to find this out because (although I'd not change how the current round of Torchwood-Las is voted) whether people who like a different system for running round 2 of it later in the year after the current one finishes. (Yes I probably should have done this before setting up the Torchwood-las comm in the first place, rather than just going with the usual system.)

Comments

[jolinarjackson.livejournal.com]

It would definitely be hard to write feedback for all stories. I think peoplewould be put off voting. It's a difficult question, though, what kind of alternative there really is ...

I think ranking all and giving feedback to the first is good, though.

[silver_sun]

The ranking all could work well using the text only answer poll that LJ does.

Have a post with the with boxes numbered 1 to however many entries there are, so the voter can type in the fic names into each one. Then have screened comments on the post so they can leave their feedback.

(I think a poll would be easier to keep track of when working out the final scores than having it all typed out in comments.)

A slightly different option would be that feedback is needed for whatever they vote for first place, but they can leave feedback for other stories as well if they wish to which will also be passed on.

[jolinarjackson.livejournal.com]

Leaving feedback for whatever else story you want to is quite good. Just because one's the favourite doesn't mean there weren't other ones I liked and I try to give feedback to almost every story.

[sariagray.livejournal.com]

I think the negative/positive voting works -I think maybe if everyone is more strident in what constitutes a negative vote. "I liked this less than the others" isn't very helpful. As a voter, your vote gets discredited if you don't give a concrete reason...that sort of thing. Concrete reasons like things were misspelled, the grammar was off, the story went no where, the characters were OOC. Including examples. That sort of thing.

Which is basically what you said! :)

Having to give feedback on all stories wouldn't put me off, per se. I just...wouldn't be able to devote the attention to it that I'd want to.

Would I participate without negative feedback? Probably not, actually. As much as I like hearing positive things, I like that the anonymity allows people to tell me how I'm doing with honesty. The negative feedback I received from jack_ianto_las (may it rest in peace) was perhaps some of the most helpful stuff I've ever gotten, including legitimate writing classes. :)

[jolinarjackson.livejournal.com]

You're right about that. Negative feedback helps. I wouldn't be put off taking part if negative feedback remained.

[firesnap.livejournal.com]

You know, I liked the negative feedback. It was interesting to see what people thought didn't work, and whether it matched what I thought was weak about it.

I like the current voting system. When the comments are done properly it's a great way to build as a writing, and it's an easy system that doesn't bog down the voter with so much to do.

[aviv-b.livejournal.com]

I like the current system, but sometimes very negative comments can cross a line for some writers. Perhaps give writers the option to get the criticism or not.

[silver_sun]

I think maybe putting together a how to give a negative vote without being nasty about it is going to be the way to go, and have a link to it from the voting post so anybody voting can go and read it.

I did give writers the option of not receiving the feedback, but perhaps it got lost amongst all the other things in the post, http://torchwood-las.livejournal.com/3036.html

But nobody contacted me to say they didn't want their feedback. I'll ask again right at the start of the next lot of voting (from this coming Friday if anybody wants to opt out of receiving feedback - or to only receive any positive feedback they get.

[analineblue.livejournal.com]

To me, one of the unique things about LAS is getting both positive and negative feedback. I don't know that I'd participate if it worked more like other challenges with a poll, or a basic ranking system, etc. To me, LAS represents a rare opportunity to to hear about what people don't like about what you're doing, honestly and anonymously, and this is one of the draws of participating, for me. (Even if it might not be the most pleasant of experiences, having to read negative comments. ^_~)

So yes, I do think negative feedback is useful, as long as the voter provides a specific reason for the vote (other than something like "everything was bad, but this was the worst").

If you had to give feedback on all the stories in a round, say 12 stories, would this put you off voting? - Yes, it would. I think this would be asking too much of most voters, and could possibly reduce the quality of the feedback all around.

So yeah, for me, I think the current system works.

[fide-et-spe.livejournal.com]

I really don't mind leaving feedback for my first three. You normally have to leave feedback for two. Really happy with ranking all the stories and leaving feedback for three, which at least gives more feedback.

The other thing to do would be have a feedback post on the results, which you did, but make it more structured with each fic represented maybe? See I feel strongly that I want to stand by my comments negative or positive, so I'd happily leave open feedback.

The other thing I'd say is that if you decide to stick to the current system, I wonder whether on the voting poll you could make it quite strict and not accept votes that aren't constructive. I know WIAD used to operate like that. I know it's a bit of work for you as a mod, but having said that, it's quite easy to see when a review is just a bit horrid and not helpful.

Thanks for thinking about this Silver, because I think it's awful that anyone may have been hurt by thoughtless voting in something that should just be a bit of fun, and reviews don't need to say the story is bad, just why it didn't work for the person voting.

Also I do think the current system has an inherent problem, that is that you can get the most positive votes, and still potentially be voted out, or certainly not win, and that does bother me.

[silver_sun]

The main reason for not having a more structured feedback post with say a comment containing the name of each fic so people can leave feedback in reply to it is that the writer of that story might not want more feedback.

I think this is especially the case if the writer's story was the one voted off. The really might not want have an open thread with everybody discussing it.

So I've left the post so if writers wish to ask for extra feedback they can.

Cutting out really bad feedback such 'This sucked, my cat could write better' or 'you wrote Jack/Gwen yuck yuck yuck' that's obviously not constructive isn't too difficult. And even without a filtering system in place I would not be counting them.

Then there's feedback like 'I really liked all the stories including this one, the only reason I'm giving this one a negative vote is because I felt the rest of the entries used the prompts in a more imaginative ways than this one'

This isn't constructive either, but I'd probably let something like this through currently (although under a strict constructive criticism only it wouldn't) because while not that helpful in telling the writer how they could have improved it, as it's not rude, and they did let them know they did also find things they liked about it.

Under the only constructive criticism rule the biggest problems would be types of feedback that are subjective.

Such as feedback where the voter they thought the characters in the story were acting out of character.

This could be down to the writer and reviewer having different views of the character. (Like the idea that Ianto became vegetarian after Countrycide so having him eat a pepperoni pizza in a series 2 setting fic is OOC. (I don't see this one really any more - but it was a big thing at one time - and the only basis for it was one of the extra on the BBC S1 website of an IM conversation between Ianto and Tosh where she asks him if he wants a sandwich, Tosh tend suggests a salad, he says okay and asks for prawn cocktail flavour crisps as well - this is apparently proof of Ianto and Tosh being vegetarian. I could see argument for either, but neither is definite canon.)


Or if the criticism is that the story ignores canon? Say it's set directly after Cyberwoman, but Ianto isn't on suspension? That's down to whether you consider the extras on BBCAmerica's website canon.

Or that something isn't realistic? (I've actually had that one when I took part in WIAD - I got a negative vote for writing that the survivors of Torchwood One had an unofficial memorial service on the anniversary of it - the review was basically 'nobody, not even Ianto would be so miserable as to have a memorial on the anniversary of something like that - they'd all want to forget it.) (Although was still better than some feedbacks I've had on multifandom LASs - writing over 40's spanking will get some weird feedback - not exactly bad just deeply weird.)

They might honestly believe that, but does it count as constructive?

I think perhaps better guidelines on what sort of thing is okay to have in a negative vote might be the way to go. (certainly for the current round as any new voting system wouldn't be introduced until the next one - unless it's what everyone wants.)

With example like this.

Good example: 'I liked the concept behind the story, but because of the frequently changing tenses and points of view I found it hard to follow.'

rather than

'Okay story ruined by awful grammar. Next time find a tense and stick to it.'

These express the same thoughts about the story, and while a writer might not want to end up receiving either, the first example is easier to deal with.

[cookiegirl]

writing over 40's spanking will get some weird feedback - not exactly bad just deeply weird.

LOL!! I want to know more about this!!

[silver_sun]

It was for Kink-las, and the characters were Nick Cutter and Captain Tom Ryan from Primeval. I've just realised that Captain Ryan is probably probably more like 39 than 40, but Cutter is mid 40's. (Based on the age of the actors)

The story is here http://the-silver-sun.livejournal.com/133693.html#cutid1

The odd comments were the LAS feedback ones, rather than the ones in reply to the fic when I posted it out to the Primeval comms (It's hard to find a nicer set of fans than those at primeval denial, they all seem to get on so well, I can't remember ever seeing an argument over their and all seem to write birthday ficlets for each other and have daily chat threads).

The LAS comments were along the lines of 'eww wrinkly sex' (in a couple of variations) and 'They couldn't have a relationship that people know about because of 'Don't ask, dont' tell'' (Which considering the characters in question in a UK based show where we don't have that rule and neither of the character are American I don't get why they thought it would apply. Apart from that they are both part of an organisation which deals with dinosaurs coming through holes in time, not part of the regular army.)

[cookiegirl]

LOL, yes you might imagine that an organisation dealing with time travelling dinosaurs would have different rules on quite a few things!! I've never seen Primeval but I keep meaning to as I've watched a couple of fanvids that make it look awesome!

I read the fic and thought it was great! Spanking is definitely my kink and Ryan's initial reaction was just brilliant!

[silver_sun]

Reply continued.

For voting systems the only system where no story can end up with equal numbers of both positive and negative votes is to remove the option of negative votes altogether. So they either get a positive vote or nothing.

Which creates a problem if you get 3 or 4 stories with no votes at the end of voting - because the comm runs to a schedule the only thing to do would be to say all the stories with no votes (or all tied on 1 vote if there are none with zero votes) are out. Which also seems harsh - as then three or four writers are voted out but none of them ever get to find out the reasons why.

Even with a ranked system a writer might get first place from 5 voters, and last place from 6, with some other votes for places in between. So they might end up placing somewhere in the middle once all votes are counted.

A ranked system could also mean a writer who gets second place from everybody ends up winning the round because the writers who got some firsts also got some thirds and fourths as well.

[fide-et-spe.livejournal.com]

Yes it really is a minefield isn't it. I can see that ranking could end up with the same issue, unless you only ranked the first three, but then you'd never be able to work out who to vote out.

I can see your point about constructive criticism. I tend to think with these sorts of things you always end up being subjective. I think that's OK because it might be that you can't really think of anything to vote them out on, and in fact it is simply because others used the prompts in a way that appealed to me as a reader more. It may not be that constructive, but at least it's not rude or mean to say that. Plus it's all subjective anyhow.

I think grammar picking etc is almost not worth it. Unless it's blatantly wrong and an easy error to pick up. There was an LAS where a story was voted out that I thought had some really basic grammar errors, it was quite difficult as a read. Anyhow in the feedback post a lot of people jumped in to reassure the writer that they were absolutely correct and quite a row ensued in the comments. (In fact I didn't comment, because I was so scared of the supporters who were insisting this story had perfect grammar) The writer had just been angry at those who voted them out, then went on to get support and more angry. I've seen that a few times even with WIAD, where the writers feel cross about negative feedback and the feedback post gets a bit scary.

Anyhow the main thing is that people feel they are getting something useful out of it, and that it can be enjoyable. I don't think it's worth anyone either feeling they can't carry on, or even ending up cross or upset when voted out. It would taint the whole thing.

I think your point about canon etc is at least a reason for voting that wouldn't upset you. I mean with the memorial service thing, you can shrug that off as a different POV. It does show though how you remember negative comments about things, we all find it difficult. You know it might sound trite but there are cultural issues as well, in the way we express ourselves, different cultures see being blunt as OK, whereas others like to couch everything in long winded politeness. I have German friends who have lived over here who think the British are so odd for always saying please and thankyou, and the long winded way we ask for things etc. They laughed at us thanking the bus driver. Yet i found it was really easy to inadvertently upset them because I didn't get their cultural mores as it were.

[harkpad02.livejournal.com]

I would just like to vote for the current system. While negative can be hard, It is useful if it's tactful. I am learning a lot about keeping my audience in mind with this, and I might not think about that so hard with a different system. It's good for me. I don't even care so much about constructive (though of Course I would prefer that) as long as it is tactful. I think there are too many variables in the other suggestions.

[cookiegirl]

I prefer the current voting system :)
I try to always vote on these things but having to put them all in order - or even 3 - would put me off.
I think negative feedback is quite useful and if authors don't want it they don't have to read it. x

Re:

[razaty.livejournal.com]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c6M_6qOz-yw

[mortkero.livejournal.com]

sorry hi, I've been trying to find out if original fic last author standing is still running? would you happen to know? or is there a list or page somewhere for me to look at?

[silver_sun]

Sorry, I don't know. The only LAS I've run is a Torchwood one. I didn't know there was an original fic one.