Children of Earth opinion poll

[silver_sun]

From what I've seen on various comms the most commonly expressed opinion seems to be that Torchwood fandom is split into two groups - those who liked Children of Earth and those who hated it because Ianto died.

Somehow I doubt that what fandom thinks can be easily defined into just these two groups - seems far too simplistic a divide. After all there have got to be those who's reason for not liking the Children of Earth isn't connected to Ianto, but to do with other elements of the plot. Or those those who liked only for the fact that Ianto died and were indifferent to the rest of the plot.

So here is the poll.

[Poll #1437603][Poll #1437603]

Comments

[quinn222.livejournal.com]

You need an other. There were maybe two things I liked about it. The incredibly poor writing, lack of thought and the fact that this was some show other than Torchwood into which the characters were dropped were my problems with it, but none of your options fit.

How about: I disliked it because it was presented as Torchwood when, in fact, it was some other show.

[silver_sun]

I've found that I'm unable to edit the poll to add more options, which I had been hoping to do.

From the suggestions I think maybe an extra 3 catagories.

* I liked it, but it didn't seem like Torchwood
* I disliked it because it didn't seem like Torchwood.
* There were only a couple of thinks I liked about it.

[quinn222.livejournal.com]

Yes, those would be good choices.

[idamus.livejournal.com]

None of those options fit me, overall I did like CoE, I hate that Ianto died, and why + the end where Gwen tells his sister and she says we didn't even KNOW Ianto, to me, that was a low blow, both to Gareth who had done such an amazing job creating him and towards us fans, another thing I didn't like was that Gwen, once again, walked away unscathed and with a happy ending

[silver_sun]

Perhaps I ought to have been clearer in my wording of the catagories, but this sounds like the 'There were some things that I disliked about it, which included Ianto dying.' catagory.

Perhaps a 'I mostly liked it, but there were some things that I disliked about it, which included Ianto dying and the ending.' catagory - although it does seem a little wordy.

Unfortunately I've found that there is no option to edit the poll to add more catagories, something which I had hoped to do.

[benbenberi.livejournal.com]

This poll is oddly structured - each of the results is 100%.

[silver_sun]

I don't know why it's doing that. This is the first poll that I've posted and I'm guessing that I've ticked the wrong thing somewhere in the poll creation set up.
Unfortunately there doesn't see to be a poll editing option available to fix it.

[shamazipan.livejournal.com]

Argh! I meant to select that Ianto dying was the only thing I disliked. Instead I clicked that it was the only thing i liked. Oops! I ruined your poll.

I think I'm in the minority in that I thought for the most part COE was the best written that torchwood has ever been. Sure there were some major plot holes that's no different to regular Torchwood anyway. I thought the acting was the best we've ever had on the show, especially from John.
Ianto dying broke my heart and I'm still not over it but I can't say that i didn't love COE. I did. It just makes me sad that its broke fandom as soundly as it broke Jack.

[justinej.livejournal.com]

I thought it was the best so far and the acting was damn good from everyone. But I hated the last two episodes and never want to watch them again so that kind of screwed the whole lot really. I loved the first three. They were the best TW so far by a long way. Mixed messages from me I know. And it wasn't down to Ianto dying. It was just not pleasant to watch at all on any level.

[shamazipan.livejournal.com]

I found it hard to watch but a lot of good drama is. I've rewatched all of COE several times and I like it more the more often I see it. What gets to me are the people who think its an attack on Jack's character. He would always sacrifice one to save many, its who he is. He doesn't enjoy it but he does what he sees as the right thing. People who say that him giving up steven makes him a monster infuriate me. Would he be less of a monster had he let the 456 take the kids? Then they would come back for more and more. Should he have saved his own and taken another family's child? Would that have been less horrific had there been time? No. Anyway, I know you didn't mention Jack but it came in my head and I needed to vent. Not at you but in general you understand.

Watching COE I felt so proud that my silly little sci fi show had grown up. It was still cracktastic (hi speed chase with a JCB anyone?) in places, it was still funny, real and dark and scary.

[justinej.livejournal.com]

I had no problem per se with him killing Stephen, just didn't like what the writers made him become. Didn't enjoy it at all. Don't see the point of taking him to this awful place and making him live forever with it.

[maxine-mirkwood.livejournal.com]

I couldn't agree more. So much of it seemed like torture of Jack for the sake of torture. Jack has always been shown as able to make the tough decisions for the greater good no matter the personal cost. He would have made the decision about Stephen whether or not Ianto was alive, my problem with it was that it was just all so contrived from the get go. Especially with greater distance form the initial viewing it all comes across as the writers sitting down and deciding that the object of the game was to leave Jack broken and then just manipulating the plot to achieve that aim without worrying too much if it held up on its own as a narrative.

[justinej.livejournal.com]

Hit the nail on the head and to be honest, the whole direction makes me feel really unhappy just thinking about it, never mind watching the damn thing. We turned over channels last night and TW was on (day one I think) and I couldn't change channels away fast enough. It made me feel ill.

[maxine-mirkwood.livejournal.com]

I know exactly how you feel, the ABC here in Australia is replaying series one at the moment and I had been watching it despite having the DVDs but now I just can't face it. Seeing Ianto so young and sweet and alive just makes me tear up all over again. I'm going over to the UK see Gareth in his panto later this year and I'm hoping to have gotten over the crying thing by then or it might just be a teensy bit embarrassing... :-)

[justinej.livejournal.com]

I'm sure he'll understand! He's very nice.

[crystalshard.livejournal.com]

There were things that I liked about Children of Earth - the acting and the directing were superb, to start with. The guest characters were all understandable and at least two-dimensional if not three. I'm not saying that I liked them all, but I could get where they were coming from.

I can also understand why they killed Ianto, although I'm still not convinced it was necessary.

The bit I have problems with is the writing. The plot holes in this, which could be ignored in a single episode, simply gape too wide in a five-ep run. Also, in order for the plot to work, the characters all had to be several brain cells short of a sensible decision.

It was an excellent drama series. However, it didn't feel like Torchwood to me. The fun, flirty, slightly bizarre series that I first got hooked on was suddenly replaced by something dark, cold and edged with sawblades.

[rabecka.livejournal.com]

Hope you don't mind me butting in on your reply, but this is almost exactly the way I feel. I think what I'm most mourning, is that the fun, quirky show I loved has ended way too soon.

[crystalshard.livejournal.com]

I don't mind at all. And contrary to what RTD thinks, the discontent isn't just a bunch of disgruntled keyboards - it's shared by those without keyboards as well. I've talked to my dad, who also watches Torchwood, and he feels the same way.

We who have keyboards don't magically have viewpoints that are the polar opposite of what RTD thinks we should be saying. We're a representative slice of the viewing population. Some liked it, some didn't, many more had reservations about the series . . .

. . . okay, rant over.

[justinej.livejournal.com]

Here here. My friend in work is who the most average viewer you could meet found it really really upsetting and not what she sat down to enjoy. She recommended it to friends based on series 1&2 and they too really disliked it.

[silver_sun]

I've found that I'm unable to add any extra catgories to the poll, but it seem like a lot of people would have liked a:

'It was good, but it didn't seem like it was Torchwood' catagory.

And I agree, it did feel more like an X-files/Spooks combination that it did anything connected to the DW/TW/SJA universe as we've been shown it up to now.

[crystalshard.livejournal.com]

Thank you for trying, anyway :)

[chasingtides.livejournal.com]

What about, "I thought CoE was well written and well acted and had a highly intriguing storyline but I've been bashing my head against the wall trying to fit it into the established Whoniverse" as an option?

It was good. I liked the miniseries. The character development of Gwen and Jack and Ianto and Rhys was intriguing and well done. However, it didn't follow its own rules and it doesn't make sense and that will not stop bothering me. The plot holes gape wide and my suspense of disbelief died in the first episode, making it difficult to watch and follow the rest of the miniseries.

I hate, though, that this makes Torchwood yet another Bury Your Gays show. I loved that most of the characters didn't feel the need to box themselves into straight and gay - being fluid was acceptable on TV for once. And now, they're all dead and gone while Gwen and Rhys, the happy straight couple expecting a baby, get to be the only happy, living people. It riles me. I suppose Ianto's death figures largely into that, but very much because of what it represents.

[silver_sun]

Another one for the 'It was alright, but it didn't seem like Torchwood' catagory?

Unfortunately I've found that I'm unable to edit the poll to add the extra catagories that people have suggested.

There were a lot of TV tropes that Torchwood had resisted until now, and then we seemed to get them all at once in this series, whether that was because of it's move to a mainstream channel I guess we'll never know.

Although I very much doubt it was meant to be seen as such, the fact that Jack uses his grandson (and that Ianto tries to borrow one of his sisters children to in day one to find out what is going on) I find as bad/worse the killing off of Ianto. It seems to suggest that children are somehow less valued by the gay characters.

Especially when the only other people who are willing to use the children are the people shown as the bad guys.
It seems such an unfortunate message to unintentinally show (I'm still clinging to the fact that they must have done this accidentally) when so many same sex couples are trying to get equal adoption/fertility treatment rights for children.

The fact that the only child to die is the son of a single mother, only seem to reinforce the stance that children are only safe if they are part of a married m/f relationship.

[clachnaben]

I voted that Ianto dying was the only thing I disliked but I did think that Rhiannon telling Gwen she didn't know Ianto was appropriate for Ianto as a character. No one really knew Ianto, not even Jack and I think that it's really brilliant writing to not paint the dead character as this wonderful person who never did anything wrong because Ianto wasn't the moral center of Torchwood, that fell to Gwen, Ianto cleaned up and disposed of bodies and generally kept secrets.
Also, I TOTALLY agree about the Bury Your Gays thing and that was really the only reason I was so upset about Ianto dying. Ianto was my favorite character but in Torchwood agents die. Often. I was just upset that RTD had fallen into the Bury Your Gays trap.
I was immensely happy though with Gwen's character development. She's less whiny and become much more knowledgeable. I can actually see her leading her own Torchwood team and really hope that Lois Habiba stays on as a character. I thought she was a brilliant piece of writing.
Overall, really the Bury Your Gays my only complaint about COE.

[chasingtides.livejournal.com]

There are so few bisexuals (or characters who aren't monosexual) portrayed on television that when something like this happens, it really bothers me. I wrote some long metas on non-monosexuals in current genre media and there is such a dearth. When you go looking for it to be treated positively, it is even harder to find characters. With the destruction of Torchwood's characters (and Jack's leaving), we've got Bones and Grey's Anatomy - neither of which are exactly genre media nor do I follow them. Torchwood has been regularly referenced - by people more knowledge, more activist, more listened to than myself - as a leader in how bisexuality can be portrayed in mainstream media. So, Ianto's death and the treatment of the queer characters is more than "My favorite character died" or "But the hot couple is broken up now" for some people, myself included.

When I combine that disappointment - which is very real; I very much like having characters I can relate to on my television screen - with the fact that I cannot reconcile what happened in CoE to what we know of the greater Whoniverse, I find CoE to be greatly lacking. The writing was done well and so was the acting. But what it was saying and how it came out - by ignoring canon that had already been made - means that I really did not enjoy the miniseries.

[maxine-mirkwood.livejournal.com]

This. A thousand times this.

As a bisexual I've always felt that we are even less represented and less fairly represented in media than even homosexuals. I related to Ianto as a positive portrayal of a bi person comfortable with their own sexuality and yet also a loyal and loving (and likely monogamous) partner. Something rare beyond diamonds in film or TV. I absolutely loathe that CoE not only took the character away from me but also did its best to deconstruct everything we knew about him and his sexuality from past series. The "not gay/only him" trope is so old in fanfiction that my favourite description of it goes all the way back to the grand daddy of all slash fandoms, original Trek with, "I'm not gay, I just like to suck Spock's cock". To see it come from the pen of an influential, out, gay writer was crushingly disappointing. I'd always been a fan of RTD, able to handwave a lot of his less than stellar excesses but I do understand now why a goodly number of my male gay friends have such issues with him and his writing.

Also, as an avid viewer of both sci fi and political/espionage/thriller style dramas, I didn't actually find CoE all that well plotted or constructed. It was visually fabulous, the acting was mostly top notch but otherwise it was junk food TV - compelling while you're consuming it but leaving you unsatisfied and vaguely nauseous after the fact. For this they killed my funny little fandom show? Not. Worth. It.

[foreverjeune.livejournal.com]

I didn't really care all that much for Children of Earth .. (and not just because, Ianto died) but, I can say this .. I wasn't happy that Ianto died .. maybe, it's a good thing that Capt. Jack cannot die .. at least he seems to be safe .. but, I really think the writers need to rethink killing off major characters .. I mean enough is enough ??

[tigercheetah.livejournal.com]

I've got to laugh at the person who said that Ianto's death was the only thing they liked about COE, makes me wonder why they're still watching the show.

I put that I mostly liked COE but Ianto's death was one of the things I disliked. Actually there's probably a number of people like myself who are in two minds about Ianto's death. On the one hand it worked well within the context of COE itself but on the other hand it's going to be a bit difficult going into series 4 without him.

[silver_sun]

The person who clicked that option posted a comment immediately afterward saying that they meant to click the 'Ianto's death was the only thing I disliked' option and got the wrong one by mistake.

I'm still in two minds about series 4, as long as Jack comes back I'll probably watch it, if he goes as well then there's not enough left to hold my interest.

[amythest-n-ice.livejournal.com]

Ianto dying was badly handled by RTD in the runup, he basically promised the fans something in interviews that he didn't deliver, leaving people feeling cheated, as well as greiving for a character they loved. If he had said nothing, then people would have been appropriately heartbroken, but the rage that came out in the aftermath wouldn't have been there.

The series overall didn't have the feeling of 'Torchwood', it had the characters, and the basic premise, but what it felt like to me was an overlong pilot for a spinoff show, with different characters ready to step into the central roles, the hub is gone, all but Gwen are gone, Andy and Rhys have been moved into a position where they can step in. Torchwood is gone, whatever follows may share the name, but that, and Gwen Cooper, will really be all it shares.

[bk_forever]

Yes, I thoroughly agree with this. I also think I wouldn't have had such a problem with Ianto's death if it happened a season or two down the line, provided that the Jack/Ianto relationship was properly developed and explored (which was what I'd been led to believe would happen in CoE). As it was, we still never saw where Ianto lived (we saw every other main character's home) and we never saw Jack & Ianto doing any ordinary day-to-day relationship things - going out for a meal or a drink, lazing about at home just talking, having an argument - whereas we saw lots of Gwen & Rhys' home life. We were told the relationhips would be treated equally and they never were. It's no wonder so many fans feel cheated - we were fed false hopes and false promises. No one likes to be lied to or misled.

[mrhapptits.livejournal.com]

I think I voted for hating everything including Ianto's death.

OK, basic premise/story wise it started off with a hint of Torchwood but ended up completely different. I'm sorry but since when has Torchwood been about the politics? Only time I ever remember politics mentioned was Jack on the phone to the Prime Minister back in Greeks Bearing Gifts.

The characterisations were off, seriously Ianto can track a private ambulance to a military base but not track down the SUV before Jack found it was lost? I think not. There were elements of New!Ianto who found Jack, was resourceful enough to get him out and find The Hub2 but these were overshadowed by the fact that his scenes were few and far between. Jack intergalactic man whore couldn't/wouldn't drag Ianto off somewhere in that massive warehouse for some serious 'them' time? Riggggghhhhhhhhhhttttttttttt.

As for Gwen, they went OTT with the she's got a big heart and can convince the world and its oyster they were in fact lemmings. Hmm, not buying that one either.

IF S4 is The Gwen Cooper Show, I for one will not be watching it. If there is a new team I won't watch it. Why would I as an established want to go through the whole getting to know the team and finding a favourite thing again? Tosh and Ianto were my top 2 favourites, Owen was third with Gwen decidedly at the bottom and Jack just above.

[hanuueshe.livejournal.com]

I thought it was the most well-written, well-acted stuff we've ever gotten out of Torchwood, when taken as a standalone miniseries.

I also feel like it wasn't Torchwood. The relationship dynamics were off between the three main characters, there was a very definate (and despairing) resolution, I couldn't engage emotionally at all for the fifth episode beyond the first three minutes, the plot was moved along mostly by non-Torchwood members, Jack's character has been stripped completely of all his development, I feel like they did a completel 180 on several of their thematic messages, the deus ex machina was as contrived as it usually was, and I feel like it invalidated the previous two seasons. Ianto's unsatisfying death was just icing on the cake. I would honestly be able to forgive it- be devasted, yes, but still willing to forgive- had those other things not been there.

[bk_forever]

The only thing I disagree with here is the 'well-written' bit. OK, Torchwood has always had plot-holes, but over 45 minutes once a week I could overlook those because of the acting and the relationships being played out. I found CoE so badly written overall that the plot fell apart for me well before the end of the first episode, even though I enjoyed a fair bit of it at that point.
I agree with everything else you mention, though. Everything I recognised as Torchwood from the first 2 series was tripped away, leaving me at the end with nothing to connect to. I can't imagine ever wanting to watch CoE again, yet I continuously watch the first 2 series despite knowing everything that will happen.

[dasyuridae.livejournal.com]

While I voted for "There was nothing about Children of Earth that I liked.", I thought I'd better explain my stance a little.

You see, I never actually watched past Day Three-- the sloppy characterisations, massive plot holes and the multiple moments where I sat up to shout "why?" at the television had already ruined it for me. The writing kind of fell apart early on, since I'm naturally fairly analytical, and I question things I can't make sense of. *doesn't fall for emotionally manipulative writing*

In the end, I won't be watching any further Torchwood, and probably won't even be watching the RTD's last Doctor Who episode(s), because as a viewer, I don't trust him as a writer.

[totally4ryo.livejournal.com]

I picked the one that came almost close to my overall feelings of CoE. There should have been 'There were very few things I did like, and Ianto dying was the top of a long list of things I hated.'
It felt more like something else with Torchwood tossed in. Hell even The Stolen Earth and JE felt more like Torchwood to me than CoE did.

[missthingsplace.livejournal.com]

It seemed vert disjointed to me, why was the govenment after them in the first place before the 456 even came into the picture? We were never told ... and Jack and Ianto's relationship seemed all over the place and so different to how it was evolving in series 2.

There was just something about series three that made it so different to the first two and not in a good way, it seemed like a completely different programme.

I wouldn't say the whole thing was bad but killing Ianto just killed it for me completely.

[ssdimes.livejournal.com]

Fuck. I meant to click on the last one and accidentally clicked on Ianto dying was the only thing I liked about Children of Earth and it won't let me change it. I fail. :/

[bk_forever]

I clicked on There was nothing about CoE that I liked, because it was the closest to what I felt. There were a few bits I liked, but on the whole I was very dissatisfied. Dreadful plotting, contrived situations, Jack being so un-Jack like as to make him hardly recognisable, Ianto being brilliantly organised and efficient one minute, then apparently losing all ability to plan the simplest things for his own safety... I could go on but then I'd be here all day. CoE was not Torchwood and I have no desire to watch further series since everything I enjoyed about Torchwood has been destroyed.

[michele659.livejournal.com]

I probably should have clicked on there was nothing I liked,but I clicked on that there were a lot of things I disliked about it and one was Ianto's death.
Really,aside from Day 1 I thought the whole thing was filled with ridiculous plot holes,OOC action on the part of Jack and Ianto,hated the "super Gwen,super agent" stuff,disliked the way Ianto and Jack's relationship was portrayed in Day 3, found the death scene cliched -the only reason it was emotional to me was because it was the death of my favorite character(and John and Gareth's acting). I thought the alien reveal was idiotic,and the fact that Jack came up with the answer in five minutes after all that was beyond the "suspend disbelief" that we are always told to have while watching tv or movies.
Jack having to sacrifice his grandson and then taking off was so over the top that it made me ill.
I have no desire to watch the show if Ianto is not there. No interest in watching Gwen at the helm, no interest in seeing her and Jack if he returns. I don't want to see more characters and get attached to them and see them die.
Oh,and that whole thing that they didn't know Ianto because he lied about his father being a master tailor was so pointless.
Obviously written as an afterthought,and who knows why exactly-as kind of a slap in the face to the character,maybe? In the scene where Ianto talks about his dad,he says "As you know,mu dad was a master tailor." He didn't say, "Remember I told you about my dad being a master tailor?"The way he phrased it made it seem as though Jack had knowledge of it. When you think about it, it would have been a really easy thing to check on while Jack was checking out Ianto's background.Even if you believe it was the plan all along to say that he lied about his background it's not that unusual a thing for people to do.
I think Gwen and Jack knew Ianto-knew what was important to know about him. He was loyal beyond belief to those he loved,he was courageous and protective,funny,smart and resourceful. He would carry your secret to the end and he was capable of enormous love. That was more important to me than anything. Actually I saw him as the real heart of Torchwood. I never saw Gwen as that,or as the moral center,either.
I agree with those that said that everything they loved and enjoyed about Torchwood was gone.The relationships between the characters,the easy way that same sex relationships were portrayed,the funny and quirky part of Torchwood began to destruct with Tosh and Owen's deaths,and fully dissolved with the death of Ianto.